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carolinecrane
Yay! carolinecrane has seen Danny/Martin! Woo, a chance to pimp one of my fave rare fandoms! Yeah, it is a wee little fandom, but it does exist. There's the requisite Yahoo group, and there are a few (very few) authors writing Danny/Martin, though there isn't anyone writing long, plotty stuff yet, just little fluff pieces and vignettes. sarahchica has a few on her site (a few Nick/Greg ones, too)- it's a pity she's redone her layout again, actually, since the last one was Danny/Martin and very snazzy. Perpetual Motion has a few ficlets too, though her site hasn't kept up with her list postings, so there will be more (they're the fluffiest of fluff, though, and I don't know how you feel about that). Julian Lee has just started writing WaT- her "Secrets Vignette" done for therealjae's challenge is good, and I assume her next update will include the series she just posted to the list, three little vignettes that intersect with Perpetual Motion's "Just" series. Calysta Rose started a story (continued here, with cliffhanger) back in January, but I don't know if she ever finished it (and it's been so long since I read it, I forget what it was like. Oh well). And I have a few of lucy_fic's tagged in my fic memories- though again, I forget what they are. I suppose I should reread before posting links, but I have more enthusiasm than patience right now.
Also, keep an eye out for the repeat of "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been"- it's a good episode anyway, but it has the slashiest, sweetest scene at the end. I was all a-squee back when I first saw it and had to post the dialogue, but it was the acting that made the scene so great. You should see it (there are dialogue spoilers in that link, but no real, major plot ones- depends on your spoiler fear, I guess). "Victory for Humanity" (repeats on 7/17) has a great D/M dialogue scene too- just a little throw-away thing, but it has the same flirty, comfortable vibe that Nick and Greg have.
Hm, I wonder if I have anything else bookmarked? Off to hunt some more...
carolinecrane has seen Danny/Martin! Woo, a chance to pimp one of my fave rare fandoms! Yeah, it is a wee little fandom, but it does exist. There's the requisite Yahoo group, and there are a few (very few) authors writing Danny/Martin, though there isn't anyone writing long, plotty stuff yet, just little fluff pieces and vignettes. sarahchica has a few on her site (a few Nick/Greg ones, too)- it's a pity she's redone her layout again, actually, since the last one was Danny/Martin and very snazzy. Perpetual Motion has a few ficlets too, though her site hasn't kept up with her list postings, so there will be more (they're the fluffiest of fluff, though, and I don't know how you feel about that). Julian Lee has just started writing WaT- her "Secrets Vignette" done for therealjae's challenge is good, and I assume her next update will include the series she just posted to the list, three little vignettes that intersect with Perpetual Motion's "Just" series. Calysta Rose started a story (continued here, with cliffhanger) back in January, but I don't know if she ever finished it (and it's been so long since I read it, I forget what it was like. Oh well). And I have a few of lucy_fic's tagged in my fic memories- though again, I forget what they are. I suppose I should reread before posting links, but I have more enthusiasm than patience right now. Also, keep an eye out for the repeat of "Are You Now or Have You Ever Been"- it's a good episode anyway, but it has the slashiest, sweetest scene at the end. I was all a-squee back when I first saw it and had to post the dialogue, but it was the acting that made the scene so great. You should see it (there are dialogue spoilers in that link, but no real, major plot ones- depends on your spoiler fear, I guess). "Victory for Humanity" (repeats on 7/17) has a great D/M dialogue scene too- just a little throw-away thing, but it has the same flirty, comfortable vibe that Nick and Greg have.
Hm, I wonder if I have anything else bookmarked? Off to hunt some more...
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My site is actually hosted on a server in my friend's closet, to I think that has something to do with the ups and downs of getting it to load. Most often than not it doesn't load for me, but it does for my friends.
I find that I'm always relieved when Martin/Sam turns into nothing. And I hope that CBS will continue to keep them apart. I know both Martin and Danny have been loosely depicted as straight, but I find that their lack of discussion aobut women gives CBS the ability to, you know, continue to keep WAT as my favorite show. Or maybe it's just the fact that Eric and Enrique have such fantastic chemistry that we're just seeing their friendship. But sometimes I wonder, after all, they share moments and arguments that no one else shares. I know that Jack and Viv argue (like colleagues) and Sam and Jack have had their differences and moments (and you can pick out, from reading the episode transcripts (which I did, okay, I skimmed looking for M/D slashyness), including the pilot, that they were implying something between Sam and Jack. And, I must admit, I am a Sam/Jack shipper, in that I like them together but have never, and will probably never, read fics. (Too much like Josh/Donna for me.)
I was talking about "Until ..." Sadly, no new ones, but you never know with me. One I'll say "oh, god I can't write" and then next, I'll be banging out fics like there's no tomorrow. So, we'll see. Plus, the Boondock Saints fandom has kind of taken me over for the moment. Anyway.
Thank you for the feedback. I don't have nearly enough friends who watch CSI, and especially WAT. I have a few (I've converted some people, to both slash and Martin/Danny), but most of my friends read my fics to humor me (Not only do I write CSI and WAT, but I write in really rare fandoms, usually made up of myself.). So it's really fantastic to hear from someone who knows the characters. It gives me confidence to keep writing.
The story had a nice, realistic tone, but it didn't go overboard on the angst- it's pleasantly subtle as it inches toward a happier ending.
I love angst like you wouldn't believe (which, I suppose, is why I'm so fond of the HP fandom, and why I write about what I do ... And the way I write). Most of my fics aren't happy, but there's just something about Martin and Danny that makes me strive to get them to work things out. Also, I enjoy writing post-eps, and I wanted to do that more with WAT, but after much thought, I decided that I'd have to write some sort of epic typing them together, because of the way the writers have changed their relationship. For example, the fights they had at the beginning of the show to Danny's whole "we make a hell of a team" statement in AYNOHYEB shows us how much they've grown closer. And as for writing that? It's daunting and something I'd want to do before next season. I have, what? Two and a half months? Maybe I could do it ;)
Briefly: CSI. I have problems with the show in that the characters never have enough screen time, especially Nick/Greg. Also, people need to stop slashing Gil with people (like the whole Jack slashing thing). It needs to stop. Please. For my sake ;)
Anyway. I'm so thrilled you read my fics! And it makes me grin that not only do you like them, but you think I write the boys (men :) well. I try, and sometimes think they don't work, which is probably one of the reasons I don't write as much. I'll try to keep writing. Again, thank you!
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I know both Martin and Danny have been loosely depicted as straight, but I find that their lack of discussion aobut women gives CBS the ability to, you know, continue to keep WAT as my favorite show.
Meh, I've been able to mostly ignore it so far. TPTB seem a little like ficcers who count every story with het romance but no sex scenes as genfic rather than het (or maybe that's only a Mag7 phenomenon, but it annoys me). Of course the boys are straight- isn't everybody? Feh. Until they get saddled with girlfriends, I'm sticking with my interpretation- Danny's bi, not exactly open about it (because of work) but not exactly hiding it either, and Martin's lurking way back behind Great-Aunt Hazel's fur coats in the closet lest he mar his career, bring Victor down on his head, etc.
But sometimes I wonder, after all, they share moments and arguments that no one else shares.
I completely agree with this. Martin seems most comfortable and seems to be most himself with Danny (and the reverse is true, I think, although since Danny's so friendly and open-seeming it isn't as obvious). He rarely relaxes around Sam and he wants to impress Jack. He has a comfortable, friendly vibe with Viv, but she's the big sister/mom and not quite a peer. But with Danny he jokes around (the vampire in rent-controlled apartments bit in... I think "Victory for Humanity"? is one of my favorite D/M scenes), he shows stress openly (after seeing his dad in "Kam Li"), he admits to making mistakes ("Silent Partner," which I really wish I'd taped- I'm still kicking myself). And then there's the selling shoe discussion in AYNOHYEB which was just... wonderful. That whole episode was wonderful for them, since, like you said, we really got to see how close they've become since the beginning of the season.
(and since I talk to so much, I need to split this in half. Babble, babble...)
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But I'm really, really hoping that CBS doesn't decide to up the M/S tension next season. [snip] but because I think M/S would be a terrible couple.
They don't have chemistry. Out of everyone on that show, Martin and Sam are the two most distant characters from each other. You're right about them being (rather, not being) friends. And, you know, I often wonder if they did that on purpose because of Jack/Sam.
Meh, I've been able to mostly ignore it so far.
Me too. Mostly because Danny and Martin share so many scenes, and they're such an OTP of mine. And as for the interpretation of Danny, I've never actually spent time thinking about their express sexual orientation (except for the whole TPTB thing), though I have to admit that I pretty much agree completely with your interpretations. I like to use the Sam/Martin (as you saw with "Until ...") as plot. As, maybe jealousy or confusion, but for me it's not based in much canon or reality. And, even thinking about it, I can't imagine why they'd hook them up. Especially after her affiar with Jack, unless I'm missing logic. Sam doesn't seam like the kind of girl who would start sleeping with her co-worker after she was sleeping with her boss. (Not that I was against it, since it's rare you see a show where they directly address issues like that.)
As for Martin's father? I think it would be interesting, later on, if he came out (and not necessarily dating Danny, maybe a prelude to dating him. Oh, god, with the bunnies.) and the reaction his father would have. Theire relationship is already strained and that? Makes this worse. I also think that Jack might have a go at the two of them if they had a public relationship. Which was something that was ignored in most West Wing fics with Josh (the boss) dating Donna (his assistant). Most fics had the President just going along with it. And I think that's a dynamic that fic writers need to address. *steps off soap box*
"Victory for Humanity" -- That was the one with the NYC teacher, right? (Which, oddly enough, will hopefully be career ... Though I'd be teaching English, not Chemistry.) That's the only trasncrip that the Shadow Anthology doesn't have. I need to find my tape (I'm missing the first half of the season) and see if I have it and rewatch it. While reading through trascripts, I was amazing with how much time Martin and Danny don't talk about work. It's not a lot, but it's perfect for me. Fodder, as I like to call it.
Something I love about Danny is how, in spite of having all of this history, he doesn't let it hold him back. (No parents, being a foster kid, etc.) And how that could play so well between the two of them. It adds another level of tension, in that Danny is probably a bit jealous of Martin's father always being in Martin's life, unlike Martin, who we know doesn't like it. One of the things that I like about this show is that fact that there's so much potential for the characters to explore their personal relationships on the show, as well as who they are, without detracting from the actual "mail plot" of the show. It's something that West Wing, CSI, and Alias (other shows I've written fics for) don't, or can't figure out, how to do (at least, well enough for me).
(Now, off to answer the second half.)
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And, even thinking about it, I can't imagine why they'd hook them up. Especially after her affair with Jack, unless I'm missing logic. Sam doesn't seam like the kind of girl who would start sleeping with her co-worker after she was sleeping with her boss.
Right, exactly. Even if Sam and Martin had chemistry (which they really don't), I can't imagine why Sam would want to pursue it. She's coming off of an uncomfortable workplace relationship (I don't remember them saying how long ago she and Jack ended it, but she's obviously not over him) and you're right, it wouldn't be logical or in character for her to begin another one. The amount of interpersonal tension that would cause could really damage the team, and that certainly wouldn't be appealing to either of these young, ambitious types.
I think it would be interesting, later on, if he came out (and not necessarily dating Danny, maybe a prelude to dating him. Oh, god, with the bunnies.) and the reaction his father would have.
I would so love to read a story dealing with this (actually I think
I also think that Jack might have a go at the two of them if they had a public relationship.
I agree with this, too. I think he'd be apprehensive about them losing their ability to react effectively in dangerous situations, particularly since he had a brush with that himself in "Fall Out," and since Martin has made too-hasty, too-risky decisions before. Plus there are his own complicated feelings for Sam to consider, though it's always possible he and Marie could work things out (I sort of doubt they will, but it's possible). Again, it would cause all sorts of unfortunate tension, and with their jobs that could be dangerous.
Yeah, "Victory for Humanity" was the NYC teacher one. I wasn't at all surprised that that was the only transcript not on Shadow Anthology, since that was the episode I was looking for. Just my luck. I think the repeat is on next week or the week after, though, so I'll have to tape it. Must have the vampire bit!
It adds another level of tension, in that Danny is probably a bit jealous of Martin's father always being in Martin's life, unlike Martin, who we know doesn't like it.
I bet Martin would be more than happy to give Danny his dad for a while. I like the possibilities for underlying tension there- nothing major maybe, just a little mutual "you don't understand what it's like and you never will" to add another facet to them. And I love that TPTB haven't done the infodump thing with anyone's character details. They could have given Danny some big NYPD Blue speech, "poor-me-orphan-foster-kid-had-to-fight-my-way-up-the-food-chain blah blah blah," and I would have rolled my eyes and ignored him. Or they could have gone the Law and Order route and given us one character detail every three seasons. But I think they've (mostly) achieved a good balance between plot and personal stuff. And I love it when Danny and Martin just talk about random stuff. You're right, it's not a lot, but it's enough.
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AH! Finished the fic. 4.5 pages ... What was I thinking? Right.
RE: Sam/Martin
Yes, to everything you said. I was going to say it would mess with their working relationship, but it's clear both of them know how to deal with relationships at work. But I can't imagine them having anything in common.
But considering how tense things are between them already, imagine the fireworks. Hoo boy.
Oh yes. I'd love to see it played out, either in fic or on tv. *sends hints to CBS* Man, I'd die happy if Martin/Danny was actually canon.
. Plus there are his own complicated feelings for Sam to consider, though it's always possible he and Marie could work things out (I sort of doubt they will, but it's possible). Again, it would cause all sorts of unfortunate tension, and with their jobs that could be dangerous.
Yes. There's so much emotion on this show, and I just love it. Nothing is ever simple, but not everything's hard, either. So much dynamic on the show. Honestly, I don't want Jack to work things out with Marie. Not just because I like Sam/Jack, but because brooding serious Jack is something that makes the show more interesting. He sees things differently than the rest of them, and I like that.
VFH is on next week, I believe. I can't wait to see it again. *does a little dance*
I like the possibilities for underlying tension there- nothing major maybe, just a little mutual "you don't understand what it's like and you never will" to add another facet to them.
Would it be wrong of me to scream "YES! YES!!" and jump up and down? Because, *waves hands* I so totally agree with that. I've been trying to work that into a fic, and well, I'm so easily distracted sometimes.
But I think they've (mostly) achieved a good balance between plot and personal stuff.
Yes. As I said before, this show isn't just about plot, there's so much emotion. And these characters, unlike A LOT of tv shows, have so much depth. I love that the writers seem to care about them and their relationships with the other characters. I know CSI tries, but they really don't hold a candle to WAT.
And I love it when Danny and Martin just talk about random stuff. You're right, it's not a lot, but it's enough.
We all want more, but. God. It's the little things. Like during 'Silent Partner' (Martin! Danny! Beach!) when they both finally spend time together. And, one last thing. I love (LOVE) that not only do they have chemistry written for them, but Enrique and Eric have body chemistry that a lot of TV couples don't have. I mentioned the 'moments' before. But even when they fight or disagree, they get in each other's faces. And they play off each other so well. I like to think that's is natural to slash them.
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So true! And so important to the Danny/Martin vibe. They don't touch as often as some of the "big" slash pairings, like Jim/Blair or Duncan/Methos, but they're always, always attuned to each other. They lean in towards each other when they're fighting, flirting or just chatting. They don't seem to have any personal space issues, like most guys- they're always rightontop of each other. Their eyes are never far from each other.
I love my friends and I pay attention to them, but I'm never that physically conscious of them. That's behavior for lovers.
Re:
Yes. And the camera helps with that. I know that during AYNOHYEB there's a lot of Danny watching Martin, when they're around the tape at the beginning and especially at the end. There are also times when one of them is just LOOKING at the other.
I hope, hopehope, that CBS is doing this on purpose. There's just something there, something that's missing with a lot of on screen couples. And if you watch Sam and Jack, you can see their chemistry, too. It's so subtle that it makes me hope that there's something between Danny and Martin.
but I'm never that physically conscious of them. That's behavior for lovers.
Yes! Or people who are attracted to each other and aren't quite aware of it. Which works for me, up until AYNOHYEB. Which, for me, is a defining Danny/Martin episode. There are things earlier, but the chemistry in this episode (which, as we already discussed, was hinted at through most other eps) just makes me think that, perhaps, something happened or is about to happen between the two of them.
I know I've written an 'already established' post-ep to Fallout I&II, but I think that, perhaps, there might be something happened before or after those two eps.
Of course, maybe it's just wishful thinking.
Vampires...
(Completely straight-faced conversation while going up the stairs to the teacher's apartment in Victory for Humanity.)
Danny: This is three, just two more to go.
Martin: Why is it that no one in a walk-up ever lives on the first two floors?
D: Vampires.
M: Really?
D: They have all the lower apartments all to themselves.
M: No direct sunlight, right?
D: Exactly. Plus they live to be a hundred and sixty years old, so the apartments never turn over.
M: That's good to know.
Re: Vampires...
Re: Vampires...
And people say they can't see the slash in this show... ;) ::shakes head::
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I'm really sorry I've never sent you feedback. I'm absolutely terrible about that- I've been in various online fandoms for ten years or so, and in zine-based ones before that, but I can still count the number of authors I've written to in the single digits (although I've gotten a little better about saying "I liked this!" type stuff in LJ anyway). I tend to chicken out before writing to anyone. I can imagine it's tough to get feedback in rare fandoms, though, which makes me feel even more guilty since so many of my fandoms are rare. I've been trying to convert people to the charms of WaT and CSI, but while the shows themselves are really popular, it's tough going, fandom-wise (I have a whole big post about why I think that is, somewhere around here). I think I've hooked in one or two friends, though, and with any luck next season will make things easier. Fingers crossed!
I love angst like you wouldn't believe...
Oh, so do I. I'm a big Aragorn/Boromir fan, which guarantees ninety-nine percent mega-angst, and a lot of my other pairings have more than their share of troubles. But with my rarer fandoms, and with WaT (and CSI) especially, I'm a sucker for happy endings. I mean, Martin and Danny have so much stress and unhappiness in their lives already. I know things wouldn't be all "tralala, it's easy because we're in love, we're happy, the end" for them, but all of that without the "it's easy" is my preference. They're just so sweet and well-suited, and I really want them to have that happy ending!
Also, people need to stop slashing Gil with people (like the whole Jack slashing thing). It needs to stop. Please. For my sake ;)
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! Gil seems fairly asexual to me (although Lady Heather was interesting). But pairing him with Greg or Nick just seems like a recipe for misery, no matter how much hero-worship the boys have for him (or especially because of that). I just can't see it. And Jack is straight and busy juggling his womenfolk- lay off, people! ;)
Anyway, sorry this is so long. It's just nice to talk with someone who likes this pairing as much as I do, and like I said, your were the first author I read in this fandom and therefore the first to confirm that it wasn't just me, Danny and Martin really were that slashable. So thanks very much for that!
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But with my rarer fandoms, and with WaT (and CSI) especially, I'm a sucker for happy endings. I mean, Martin and Danny have so much stress and unhappiness in their lives already.
Oh yeah, I totally agree. But I find myself wanting them to suffer, before I make them happy. Not any of the kidnappings and stuff that people like to throw onto their characters, but emotions. And Danny and Martin make it easy, because they so obviously have emotions. We've seen them sad, happy, upset, and tons of other emotions. One of the things I liked about Nick's Stalker!Ep and the ep and the one after Greg's lab was blown up, was the fact that we saw, for almost the first time, deep emotions for both men. I know it's hard, with both shows, but it's makes sense with WAT because they deal with people all the time. And something else ... Because I, like, you, am rambling and something just struck me.
I don't know if Viv is single or not, I seem to think she has a husband, and Jack has his wife. But the other three? How hard would it be to date someone and not be able to really talk about your work. Sam, I think, had that cop she we out with, and Danny had that female friend during Little Big Man. But, really, neither of them have anyone else to talk to. And that's yet another dynamic between them. Though I don't know the policy on dating coworkers in the FBI. I'll stop with this little ramble, before I totally lose my train of thought.
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes! Gil seems fairly asexual to me (although Lady Heather was interesting). But pairing him with Greg or Nick just seems like a recipe for misery, no matter how much hero-worship the boys have for him (or especially because of that). I just can't see it. And Jack is straight and busy juggling his womenfolk- lay off, people! ;)
Yes. I hope Lady Heather comes back. I do like her and Gil's tension. People pair them with Gil for two reasons, one is the whole boss/hero thing you mentioned, and the other is that "everyone" seems to love William Peterson (I like him better than David Caruso, but, no). As for Jack? I have no idea why people do it. And you're so right about the womenfolk in his life! Hee.
It's just nice to talk with someone who likes this pairing as much as I do, and like I said, your were the first author I read in this fandom and therefore the first to confirm that it wasn't just me, Danny and Martin really were that slashable. So thanks very much for that!
That's just. Yeah. I started writing them as soon as I really realized I thought they were slashy. And, really, I want to keep writing them. Especially now that we've done so much chatter about them!
And, thank you, for the feedback, but mostly for the conversation. There's actually a WaT community (
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Oh yeah, I'm a sucker for emotional pain. Makes the happy ending that much sweeter. And these fellas suffer so nicely. Danny in Clare de Lune is a wonderful thing (and subtly worried!Martin at the very end was very sweet). I wish we'd gotten to see a smidge more of Martin's reaction to the ending of "In Extremis," but the hints we got were good, and of course there's always the possibility of fic.
Viv is indeed married- when Jack's complaining that someday he'll be Bitter Old Divorced Guy in the dating video in whatever episode that was (maybe "Friendly Skies," but I forget and I'm too lazy to check), she jokes that her husband is looking better all the time (her kid was a cutie, though, wasn't he?). Sam is (understandably) a little gun-shy when it comes to dating, I think, what with Jack, the youthful ex-husband, and whichever bad exes gave her that "thing about men." But in general I bet it is hard for them to date outside of work (for lots of reasons, including the stress and lousy hours), and I'm pretty sure there are fraternization regs that make dating at work complicated (regs between peers, I mean, since we know from AYN... that there are rules against subordinates dating superiors). Poor kids.
the other is that "everyone" seems to love William Peterson
Yeah, why is that? I mean, he's not unattractive, but he's certainly not the Adonis that I see him treated like on various lists and messageboards. He looks like somebody's dad, or maybe a high school science teacher. Maybe we're missing something?
And since you don't object, I'm off to friend you. I know it's irrational, since it's really a "people I like to read/I have things in common with/I think are neat" list, but I still feel a little awkward randomly friending people, or I would have before now. This whole LJ adventure has been a learning process, that's for sure. *g*
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Yes. I love watching Danny deal with his emotions. I love it, and this is somewhat weird I think, when he's talking to the girl at the end of CDL and his voice breaks. It just makes my heart break. The end of CDL, the whole 'would you like a cup of coffee' thing between Danny and Martin makes me so happy. Especially because of this 'moment' they have. And yes, IE needed more of a Martin reaction. And a fight, I would think, between Martin and Danny, because they held such opposite opinions. And, I suppose, we did see some of it in my favorite ep, AYNOHYEB?.
Viv is indeed married- when Jack's complaining that someday he'll be Bitter Old Divorced Guy in the dating video in whatever episode that was [snip] she jokes that her husband is looking better all the time (her kid was a cutie, though, wasn't he?).
Oh yeah! There aren't enough happily marrieds on tv either. Ahh, WaT, you're a one of a kind show ;) And yes, her kid is SO cute.
I always refer to West Wing when it comes to dating rules, because the White House/West Wing rules are different than workplace rules. Which makes me wonder if FBI rules are different. And yeah, it probably IS hard. They don't seem to have a lot of free time. That's one thing I do like about CSI is that you see what the characters do in their free time. (Well, sometimes.) But it seems that WaT!Characters don't really have that much at all. Which would make it easier for them to date each other, or people in the police force.
He looks like somebody's dad, or maybe a high school science teacher. Maybe we're missing something?
Yeah. He's like that next door neighbor that gets your mail when you're on vacation and feeds your dogs while you're away. Not the kind of guy I'd like to slash. I mean, hell, I'd rather slash David Caruso's charater and Russell Crowe's character in 'Proof of Life' and William or Jack (although, I really love Jack. Carry over from Empire Records, I think.) But yes, we are so definitely missing something.
And since you don't object, I'm off to friend you. I know it's irrational, since it's really a "people I like to read/I have things in common with/I think are neat" list, but I still feel a little awkward randomly friending people, or I would have before now. This whole LJ adventure has been a learning process, that's for sure. *g*
Oh mean, It totally understand. I've had this LJ for over a year, two in September, and I still have 'issues' with friending. Sometimes I friend random people, but only if they're in a fandom I like. I went through this whole boy band phase, when almost all of my LJ friends were in popslash. Then I 'left' (moved on to HP) and lots a lot of those people. But, most recently, my friends list has stayed the same -- or grown as I become more active in smaller fandoms with cooler people ;)